Author Topic: Political Pigpin  (Read 188616 times)

Bluejay

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #180 on: July 19, 2007, 03:58:59 pm »
Sadly the points are very valid on both ends, On the one side, you shouldn't have to pay for anyone else, it's not fair.  At the same time, it's also not fair that I do work for a living, and can't afford to take care of myself because the cost of healthcare and insurance are too high.  Unless I want to go with something that will only get me the bottom of the barrel coverage and still take all my money.  Basically as always it's the working class that get shafted by the whole deal.
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Boris

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #181 on: July 19, 2007, 04:06:00 pm »
I'm trying to think up a new economic system where everybody wins, but so far I'm not good at conceiving what fundamentle thing would have to change or be realised for that to be so.

((Right now I tend to like the 'keep what you do have' system better, but to be fair I know I've got it better than many...))
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ecto

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #182 on: July 19, 2007, 04:12:43 pm »
The fact this whole concept is based on communism ideology is actually what worries me the most about this. Notice how the part concerning communist ideology of the idea of universal healthcare isn't given major attention in the media. Another reason I don't think this could work is Congress is at war with itself. I doubt this could really be handled well.
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FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #183 on: July 19, 2007, 07:14:29 pm »
Universal healthcare is so far from communism that it's crazy to even make the comparison.  That's a scare tactic the opposition uses, with which they never bother to mention that we already have socialized school systems, fire, police, and all of those things we all take advantage of regularly and pay taxes for.  We also have socialized healthcare already in terms of Medicare, it's just that not everyone in the country can get it.

There's nothing stopping anyone in any of the other countries with universal healthcare from going with a private healthcare company.  Choice still exists.  It's just that universal healthcare gives those without any choice an answer.  And there's a whole lot of people that don't have any choice under the current "system". 

As I've said many a time, the key to a successful system is to allow people to file it on their tax returns to get a refund if they have private insurance.  This way those people don't pay more than they want to, if they really think private healthcare is still that much better.  There are already lots of things in place in the tax system to allow for refunds for various things, so I see this as nothing worse or more time consuming for people to have to do every year.  And it benefits them by forcing the insurance companies to lower their rates in order to convince people to use them, since there would be "free" competition.  It takes the power away from the greedy companies that regularly extort countless people every day.

Also, saying America is better than Cuba is nothing to be proud of.  We're still at practically the bottom of the damn list.  That's utterly pathetic for a superpower.

Boris

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #184 on: July 20, 2007, 01:39:39 pm »
Ecto, some days you're doing your side more harm than good with such broad sweeping untennable statements, stick to more specific points and facts that actual reputable sources produce.

Fyber's refund idea there isn't bad in theory, but you run into notions of what an acceptable price is. If a company has to compete with the infinitely more subsidised federal system, they might run into stagnation or flat unprofitablity. I don't mind the notion here being that you would pay a higher ammount for better services though, but a lot of the proponents of social healthcare feel that is whats already wrong with our system and that would probably be swatted down real quick as the 'you're still killing the poor to serve the rich.' mentality sets in. Further, what if under the no-tax-for-private-insurance system there were not enough money to maintain the public system? You can bet your butt we'd have a tax hike somewhere else rather than the government ever getting around to cutting benefits.

Incidently, I'd wager nobody has a clue what the hell is going on in Cuba, saying that everybody has access to doctors of medicines or whatever the crap is a very spinable statement. (See my previous snarky comment of [Dr. Nick Riverra's Holleywood Upstairs medical school]) and we all no that a country with no acountable drug oversight will always have high quality not made from sheet rock pills. Beyond just spinning, though, you've got to figure a country like that is flat controlling the press that comes out of it to make its own medical system look better, and we'll probably never know most of the story until not just Castro but the whole communist party regime there dies.

As for insurance, it is an absurd game anyway, it's basically the game of saying 'no' to people for money. Co-op's arn't much better, it's the game of saying 'no' to people so you can break even. Health care is unfortuantely something everybody needs, definitely multiple times in their life. Since this stuff costs so much these days, that's a losing game long term for everybody except those who could flat pay for it themselves anyway.

I had more, but I've been staring at this post for a half hour, so I'll just let her rip.
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FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #185 on: July 21, 2007, 02:36:03 am »
Honestly though I don't see anything wrong with people not being able to get the money back in tax returns, either.  If you send your kids to private school, I don't believe there's a refund to get back the taxes you pay for public school.  If you put out your own fires, and never call the cops, don't drive on the roads, don't litter, etc etc, there's no refunds.  Doesn't matter, you pay for everyone.  So healthcare really shouldn't be any different, because everybody needs it just like they need all of those other things.  And I don't really have a problem with the idea of me paying for other people to be healthy too.  A society of healthy people aint a bad thing, especially when it means more healthy workers.

By the by, the number of people with private insurance in the countries that have socialized healthcare isn't all that high; maybe around 20% I believe, depending on where you go.  One could argue "they can't afford private insurance after the tax increase", but I'd counter it with "maybe they don't need private insurance, since most everything they need gets taken care of for free". 

When you need to see a doctor about something, the last thing you want to worry about is whether you can pay for it.  Peace of mind is priceless.  With our current system, I'd bet the number of people who truly don't have to worry about possibly paying for their visit (even if they actually have insurance) is very few.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2007, 02:57:50 am by FyberOptic »

FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2007, 10:21:06 am »
Meanwhile, the French do something cool regarding us for July 4th, and I'm fairly sure none of the news channels cared enough to run anything about it.  Guess it'd have had to have been anti-american before any of them woulda cared enough to air it.  So kudos to the French for that.

FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #187 on: July 22, 2007, 02:07:03 am »
A page to "help" you pick your presidential candidate.  Mine said I should vote Kucinich.  Don't think I'll be doing that, but it was interesting to try.

Bluejay

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #188 on: July 22, 2007, 06:48:52 am »
Kucinch, then Clinton very close behind.
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FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2007, 07:40:03 pm »
* FyberOptic keeps posting on all different political topics every other day.

I heard some interesting factoids though.  The leading cause of bankruptcy in America is apparently medical bills.  And it also seems it's a (or presumably the) biggest cause of homelessness.  I think that's a good indication that our medical system is a pretty huge financial mess for everyone, considering how many people file bankruptcy every year, as well as how many homeless we have.

But we're all paying the consequences every time somebody files for bankruptcy, because not only does it mean no money paid for the doctor bills they ran up (that got them behind on their bills in the first place), but it includes their other bills too, such as credit cards and the like.  Companies have to raise prices and/or lay off workers and/or switch to importing or hiring from overseas.  In the case of a smaller doctor's office, enough of that could put them out of business entirely.

And just imagine all the money being spent to help and take care of the homeless every year, when a lot of those people might not even be there had they been able to just get the medical care they needed in the first place.  Worse yet, when they're found out on the street in need of medical attention, who do you think ends up paying for their care?

And I'm not entirely sure on the factual status of this one, but I heard that nobody ever files for bankruptcy for medical bills in Canada and Britain.  So yeah, just a little more reasoning on why I think universal healthcare just seems like such a logical thing to implement in my view.  It benefits everyone in so many ways that it seems that people will end up paying less in the long run.   Not just for medical issues (since the overhead for government-run healthcare is hugely reduced, and the profit margin is eliminated), but possibly for lots of other things too (like credit card rates and store prices).  Besides, a doctor should just be able to treat you without calling to see if your insurance will cover what he's about to do first.  And worse yet, possibly refuse to treat you if they won't cover it!  Such mega lame.


EDIT:  They were just telling again on the news about a group in my state that gets a ton of volunteer doctors together (over 1500 I think they said) to setup a three-day mobile health center in a field with tents and equipment and everything, and give everyone that shows up free care.  Dental or whatever you need.  I'm not sure how many times they've done it now, but it's at least twice.  They even try and help folks get in contact with the right people if they need further medical help.  But the point is that thousands of people showed up (yes thousands), most of them waiting there overnight just to get seen.  Overnight.  It wasn't close enough to my town though, plus there's the whole huge line, so oh well.  But tis just another example of why healthcare is so needed.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 09:24:26 pm by FyberOptic »

Boris

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2007, 04:06:49 pm »
Stepping away from the issue of healthcare for a bit, (not to be an ass or anything, but I think we could go back and forth on it sixty times and get nowhere,) I wanted to bring this little nuget to the fore: Poll on factors for success in America.
Longtime 'play at home' viewers can probably guess my opinions, but I'd like to poll you guys first and see what you think on this particular topic.

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FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #191 on: August 14, 2007, 04:55:25 pm »
I mentioned this in chat but I naturally have to mention it here because it's just funny.

Basically, Fox News got caught editing Wikipedia articles.  As you can see even by one particular change on Wikipedia itself, the word "liberal" was naturally tossed in, along with a totally different quote of what the person said. 

Now of course not ready to immediately take it for face value, I checked the IP myself of the person that did the changing (12.167.224.228), and found that it's owned by:  FOX NEWS CHANNEL FOX-NEWS73-224-224 (NET-12-167-224-224-1)

And as can be seen by the list of compiled changes made by various Fox News IPs, they've changed things other than their own content, such as Keith Olbermann from MSNBC, who they naturally hate because he constantly points out their propaganda on his show.  Wikipedia's policy is that you're not even allowed to modify your own content, other people are supposed to do it, so Fox News has pretty much violated that rule too.  You'd think they would be smart enough to do it from an IP that wasn't connected to them, but apparently not.

In related news, polls apparently show that viewers of Fox News generally mistrust other news sources.  Guess a news organization that has a reputation for modifying events to suit their agenda (both on air and off) is the only trustworthy source?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 04:57:36 pm by FyberOptic »

FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #192 on: August 16, 2007, 02:25:28 am »
Ecto linked me this and I thought it worth posting here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyEfmDtxdhM

I've not been crazy about the current crowd of democrats in congress right now to be honest, and then they pull shit like that, and especially with an issue which I oppose.  I personally in no way think illegals should get any of the taxpayer benefits.  They're lucky we aren't shipping them all out of here, but we wussed out on that. 

But yeah, dirty move.  I pretty much have no particular liking for the entire governing body of the country as of late.

FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #193 on: August 22, 2007, 04:56:07 pm »
Thought this was kinda interesting.  Tis a list of who owns who in terms of the news agencies.  A few years old, but no matter.

Here's a more recent list of some big boys, for anyone interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_General_Electric
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_CBS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Viacom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Disney
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Time_Warner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_News_Corporation

It's easy to say most media has a liberal bias, but most of it is obviously controlled by oil/military/etc, most of which would quite naturally have the opposite political stance.



EDIT:  Judge orders Bush administration to issue the required global warming reports that they conveniently never did.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 06:59:03 pm by FyberOptic »

FyberOptic

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Re: Political Pigpin
« Reply #194 on: August 28, 2007, 11:08:52 pm »
Ever needed proof that rich people pay less taxes than everyone else?  Just ask Warren Buffet.  I think he should know.